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Difference between revisions of "Talk:Documenting Lule Sami"

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====Annotation of Verbal inflection====
 
====Annotation of Verbal inflection====
−
There are similar problems for other inflections too, as for the '''PAST''' inflection '''-j'''. For '''3SG''' the '''PAST''' inflection is not followed by any inflection for '''3SG''': '''-Ø'''.  
+
The past morpheme is -j. Observe that for '''3SG''' the '''PAST''' inflection is not followed by any inflection for '''3SG''': '''-Ø'''.  
  
 
For this case there is an allomorph for '''-j''' that is '''PAST.3SG'''.    (Kristin)
 
For this case there is an allomorph for '''-j''' that is '''PAST.3SG'''.    (Kristin)
  
−
(Dorothee): Sry, can you explain this some more
+
Take the case of 'rabáj' 'opened' as in:  
  
−
.....................................  
+
<Phrase>4207</Phrase>
 +
the morpheme -j expressed PAST.3SG. and not only the past.
  
  
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(Kristin)
 
(Kristin)
−
we start out with a '''V stem'''. It is introduced as '''vstem''', but I would prefere to write it '''Vstem'''. There is a derivation that works on '''the stem only (!)''' that makes the word '''passive''' - and the meaning changes: '''gulla'''-t > '''gullu'''-t and meaning from '''hear/listen''' to '''belong'''. (There is a discussion whether this way of making passives is "true" passivisation). We need to say this in one glossing space.
+
we start out with a '''V stem'''. It is introduced as '''vstem''', but I would prefer to write it '''Vstem'''. There is a derivation that works on '''the stem only (!)''' that makes the word '''passive''' - and the meaning changes: '''gulla'''-t > '''gullu'''-t and meaning changes from '''hear/listen''' to '''belong'''. (There is a discussion whether this way of making passives is "true" passivisation). We need to say this in one glossing space.
−
 
+
−
(Dorothee) Hm... also for this I would need some more explanation and perhaps an example :=)
+
  
 +
I searched for the gloss PASS in our Lule Sami annotations and found the sentence below
 +
<Phrase>4199</Phrase>
 +
which illustrates what is said above.
 +
([[User:Dorothee|Dorothee]] 14:08, 21 November 2008 (CET))
  
 
====Derivational tags====
 
====Derivational tags====
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We need derivational tags. I prefer to write it like this:
 
We need derivational tags. I prefer to write it like this:
  
−
'''Nstem->Vtype-of-derivation'''     
+
'''Nstem->Vtype-of-derivation'''<br.>
 +
      
 +
'''Vstem->Ntype-of-derivation'''<br.>     
  
−
'''Vstem->Ntype-of-derivation'''    
+
'''Vstem->Vtype-of derivation'''<br.>
−
 
+
−
'''Vstem->Vtype-of derivation'''
+
  
 
'''Nstem->ADJ'''     
 
'''Nstem->ADJ'''     
  
−
'''Nstem->ADV'''   
+
'''Nstem->ADV'''   
  
−
'''ADJ->ADV'''     
+
'''ADJ->ADV'''     
  
−
''' Nstem->Ntype of derivation'''  and so on...
+
''' Nstem->Ntype-of-derivation'''  and so on...
  
−
'''We should decide all these things NOW'''
+
We should decide all these things '''NOW'''
  
  
−
(Dorothee): right, so some consistency is needed: let's for the time being go with the following, since
+
(Dorothee): right, so some consistency is needed: let's go with the following to start with:
−
at this point it seems better to keep things a little underspecified:
+
  
−
ADJ->N
+
{| border="1"
−
V->N
+
|+ derivational tags in TypeCraft
−
N->ADJ
+
|-
−
ADJ->N  
+
! derived from a verb
−
ADJ->ADV 
+
! derived from a noun
 +
! derived from an adjective
 +
|-
 +
| V>N
 +
| N>ADJ
 +
| ADJ>N
 +
|-
 +
| V>ADJ
 +
| N>V
 +
| ADJ>ADJ
 +
|-
 +
|
 +
|
 +
|ADJ>V
 +
|}
  
−
These are all gloss tags.
+
I will add these tags today (replacing older versions of derivational tags)
 +
([[User:Dorothee|Dorothee]] 14:23, 21 November 2008 (CET))
  
  
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''There is no clear categorial distinction between adjectives and nouns in Lule Saami. (Reference???) ''  
 
''There is no clear categorial distinction between adjectives and nouns in Lule Saami. (Reference???) ''  
  
−
(Dorothee):This statement is somewhat dubious: if there would be no distinction between adjectives and nouns, how come we have derivational morphology on an adjective when it appears as a noun? (See example) *Strange* (-dorothee)
+
(Dorothee):This statement is somewhat dubious: if there would be no distinction between adjectives and nouns, how come we have derivational morphology on an adjective when it appears as a noun?  
  
−
(Dorothee): Sammallahti, already in his Table of Contents, talks about derivational nouns and derivational adjectives; so I think we should not talk about there being no categorial distinction between nouns and adjectives!!!
+
(Dorothee): Sammallahti, already in his Table of Contents, talks about derivational nouns and derivational adjectives; so I think we should not talk about there being no categorial distinction between nouns and adjectives. A different matter is that not every language marks derivations morphologically, and also languages that do mark derivation, such as Lule Sami, do not do so consistently.
  
 
(Kristin) It is not as simple as that!  
 
(Kristin) It is not as simple as that!  
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In English we have a '''N''' fx '''dress'''. If we want to put on this dress, we '''dress'''. There is no difference between '''dress''' and '''dress''' except when we start to use the word.  
 
In English we have a '''N''' fx '''dress'''. If we want to put on this dress, we '''dress'''. There is no difference between '''dress''' and '''dress''' except when we start to use the word.  
  
−
The same we see in Lule Sami: many '''N'''s can also be used as '''ADJ'''s fx  
+
The same we see in Lule Sami: many '''N'''s can also be used as '''ADJ'''s and vice versa, fx:
  
−
'''sáme''' - which means: 1) Sami (person), 2) Sami (fx culture, dress, language etc.)
+
'''sáme''' - which means: 1) Sami '''N''' (person), 2) Sami '''ADJ''' (... culture, dress, language etc.) - "'''sáme''' ''attr.'' - samisk; ''sáme álmmuk'' det samiske folk, den samiske befolkning [...] '''sámij álmmuklávla - lávllag-''' samenes nasjonalsang, samefolkets sang" (Kintel).
  
−
'''sáluk''' (the '''-k'' is an inflection that shows that this is people/person(s)) - which means 1) holy (person), 2) holy (thing) - "'''sáluk sálug'''- ''attr.'' '''sálugis'''" (Kintel)
+
'''sájgge''' - which means 1) miserly/stingy/tight '''ADJ''', 2) tightwad '''N''' (person) - "'''sájgge jg''' attr. '''sájges''' - gjerrig, påholden, knipen; ''s. gnier''; jf ''gánek, hánes''" (Kintel).
 +
 
 +
'''sáluk''' (the '''-k''' is an inflection that shows that this is a '''N''') - which means 1) blessed '''N''' (person), 2) blessed '''ADJ''' (thing) - "'''sáluk sálug'''- attr. '''sálugis''' - salig" (Kintel).
 +
 
 +
'''vuonnak''' ('''N''' inflection '''-k''') - which means 1) spoiled child '''N''', 2) spoiled '''ADJ''' - "'''vuonnak vuonnag'''- attr. '''vuonnak''' - ''adj.'' bortskjemt, forvent; ''s.'' et bortskjemt barn; jf. ''vuolok''" (Kintel).
 +
 
 +
"'''hálmuk hálmug-''' attr. '''hálmugis''' - søt [sweet], søtaktig [sweetish] ['''ADJ''']; søtsaker [sweets], noe søtt [smth sweet] ['''N''']; jf. ''hálmes, njálggá''" (Kintel).
 +
 
 +
"'''diejddis''' attr. - treffsikker [sharp-shooting, accurate; exact, precise] [ADJ]; som lett finner veien [who easily finds the way] [N]" (Kintel).
  
−
'''sájgge''' - which means 1) miserly/stingy/tight, 2) tightwad (person) - "'''sájgge jg''' attr. '''sájges''' - gjerrig, påholden, knipen; ''s. gnier''; jf ''gánek, hánes''
 
  
−
 
  
 
'''ADJ and N'''
 
'''ADJ and N'''
Line 88: Line 111:
  
  
−
(Dorothee): Here something different
+
Now something different:
−
Concerning '''subcategorization of nominalizers'''' you gave a list which looks interesting:  
+
Concerning '''sub-classification of nominalizers'''' you gave a list which looks interesting:  
  
 
- Betegner selve handlingen: '''tjállem''' - the act of writing
 
- Betegner selve handlingen: '''tjállem''' - the act of writing
Line 101: Line 124:
 
- Vær- og føreforhold, eller stedet hvor handlingen skjer: '''jådådahka''' - godt føre ; '''tjuoladahka''' - sted hvor en har hugget ved - som heter '''?''' og forkortes '''?'''  (Kristin)
 
- Vær- og føreforhold, eller stedet hvor handlingen skjer: '''jådådahka''' - godt føre ; '''tjuoladahka''' - sted hvor en har hugget ved - som heter '''?''' og forkortes '''?'''  (Kristin)
  
−
Yet, in its present form I cannot quite make sense out of the above listing. It would help if you could indicate the words citation form and the affix, and provide some more context for the Norwegian translations. Thanks
+
Yet, in its present form I cannot quite make sense out of the above listing. It would help if you could indicate the word's citation form and the affix, and provide some more context for the Norwegian translations. Thanks
  
−
Dorothee
+
([[User:Dorothee|Dorothee]] 17:21, 15 December 2008 (CET))
  
  
  
−
Please add the full reference for Spiik
+
'''Please add the full reference for Spiik''' to the page [[Lule_Saami_reference_list]]
  
  
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They can all be a free noun.  
 
They can all be a free noun.  
  
−
(Dorothee): now I am lost. Could you please explain :=)
+
Now I am lost. Perhaps you refer to the fact that words are often not only member of one categorial class but of several.
 +
 
 +
Here some examples:  
 +
 
 +
* Those apples look good.
 +
* I take two those and three of the others.
 +
* These two are still good.
 +
 
 +
([[User:Dorothee|Dorothee]] 17:27, 15 December 2008 (CET))

Latest revision as of 19:07, 5 September 2009

Annotation of Verbal inflection

The past morpheme is -j. Observe that for 3SG the PAST inflection is not followed by any inflection for 3SG: -Ø.

For this case there is an allomorph for -j that is PAST.3SG. (Kristin)

Take the case of 'rabáj' 'opened' as in:

Gå Gånågis Sámedikkev rabáj ja gå Mari Boine kråvnnåprinsa hejan lávloj, de dåbddiv garra gulluvasjvuodav ietjá sámij.
“When the King opened The Sámi Parliament, and when Mari Boine was singing during the wedding ceremony at the Crown Prince's wedding, I could feel a strong affilation to other Saamis.”
Gå
gå
when
COMP
Gånågis
gånågis
king
Np
Sámedikkev
sámedikkev
SaamithingACCSG
N
rabáj
rabáj
openPAST3SG
Vtr
ja
ja
and
CONJC
gå
gå
when
COMP
Marit
Mari
Mari
Np
Boine
Boine
Boine
Np
kråvnnåprinsa
kråvnnåprinsa
crownprinceGENSG
N
hejan
hejan
weddingINESSSG
N
lávloj
lávloj
singPAST3SG
Vitr
de
de
then
CONJS
dåbddiv
dåbddiv
feel1SGPAST
Vitr
garra
garra
strong
 
gulluvasjvuodav
gulluvasjvuodav
belong(state)-nessACCSG
N
ietjá
ietjá
other
 
sámij
sámij
SaamiACCPL
N

the morpheme -j expressed PAST.3SG. and not only the past.


V > Vpass

(Kristin) we start out with a V stem. It is introduced as vstem, but I would prefer to write it Vstem. There is a derivation that works on the stem only (!) that makes the word passive - and the meaning changes: gulla-t > gullu-t and meaning changes from hear/listen to belong. (There is a discussion whether this way of making passives is "true" passivisation). We need to say this in one glossing space.

I searched for the gloss PASS in our Lule Sami annotations and found the sentence below

Gulluvasjvuohta ietjama duobddágijda sisŋemusán vuona sinna la nanos.
“The attachment to our own area in the fjord land is strong. ”
Gulluvasjvuohta
gulluvasjvuohta
belongPASSV>ADJ-nessNMLZNOMSG
N
ietjama
ietjama
selfGENSG1PLPOSS
PNrefl
duobddágijda
duobddágijda
areaILLPL
N
sisŋemusá
sisŋemusán
inmostINESSSG
ADJ
vuona
vuona
fjordGENSG
 
sinna
sinna
inINESSSG
 
la
la
is3SGPRES
 
nanos
nanos
strongN>ADJPRED
ADJ

which illustrates what is said above. (Dorothee 14:08, 21 November 2008 (CET))

Derivational tags

(Kristin): I see you have made a gloss V-Adj.

I would like derivations to be written with an arrow ->: Vstem->ADJ

The N/ADJ could be written N-ADJ - with capitals because it is a POS.

We need derivational tags. I prefer to write it like this:

Nstem->Vtype-of-derivation<br.>

Vstem->Ntype-of-derivation<br.>

Vstem->Vtype-of derivation<br.>

Nstem->ADJ

Nstem->ADV

ADJ->ADV

Nstem->Ntype-of-derivation and so on...

We should decide all these things NOW


(Dorothee): right, so some consistency is needed: let's go with the following to start with:

derivational tags in TypeCraft
derived from a verb derived from a noun derived from an adjective
V>N N>ADJ ADJ>N
V>ADJ N>V ADJ>ADJ
ADJ>V

I will add these tags today (replacing older versions of derivational tags) (Dorothee 14:23, 21 November 2008 (CET))


Nouns and Adjectives

There is no clear categorial distinction between adjectives and nouns in Lule Saami. (Reference???)

(Dorothee):This statement is somewhat dubious: if there would be no distinction between adjectives and nouns, how come we have derivational morphology on an adjective when it appears as a noun?

(Dorothee): Sammallahti, already in his Table of Contents, talks about derivational nouns and derivational adjectives; so I think we should not talk about there being no categorial distinction between nouns and adjectives. A different matter is that not every language marks derivations morphologically, and also languages that do mark derivation, such as Lule Sami, do not do so consistently.

(Kristin) It is not as simple as that!

In English we have a N fx dress. If we want to put on this dress, we dress. There is no difference between dress and dress except when we start to use the word.

The same we see in Lule Sami: many Ns can also be used as ADJs and vice versa, fx:

sáme - which means: 1) Sami N (person), 2) Sami ADJ (... culture, dress, language etc.) - "sáme attr. - samisk; sáme álmmuk det samiske folk, den samiske befolkning [...] sámij álmmuklávla - lávllag- samenes nasjonalsang, samefolkets sang" (Kintel).

sájgge - which means 1) miserly/stingy/tight ADJ, 2) tightwad N (person) - "sájgge jg attr. sájges - gjerrig, påholden, knipen; s. gnier; jf gánek, hánes" (Kintel).

sáluk (the -k is an inflection that shows that this is a N) - which means 1) blessed N (person), 2) blessed ADJ (thing) - "sáluk sálug- attr. sálugis - salig" (Kintel).

vuonnak (N inflection -k) - which means 1) spoiled child N, 2) spoiled ADJ - "vuonnak vuonnag- attr. vuonnak - adj. bortskjemt, forvent; s. et bortskjemt barn; jf. vuolok" (Kintel).

"hálmuk hálmug- attr. hálmugis - søt [sweet], søtaktig [sweetish] [ADJ]; søtsaker [sweets], noe søtt [smth sweet] [N]; jf. hálmes, njálggá" (Kintel).

"diejddis attr. - treffsikker [sharp-shooting, accurate; exact, precise] [ADJ]; som lett finner veien [who easily finds the way] [N]" (Kintel).


ADJ and N

Anders Kintel writes in his "Veiledning i bruk av ordboka (foreløpig versjon):

"Vi gjør oppmerksom på at de fleste adjektiv i samisk kan også fungere som substantiv og også motsatt, derfor står det ikke alltid en markering bak ordet som tilsier at dette er et adjektiv eller et substantiv".

Lulesamisk-norsk del. Ajluokta /Drag, biehtsemanon 2005. Upublisert (under bearbeidelse).

(I go away for the weekend. Back on this page on monday 10th.)


Now something different: Concerning sub-classification of nominalizers' you gave a list which looks interesting:

- Betegner selve handlingen: tjállem - the act of writing

- Betegner redskap, midlet til å utføre handlingen med: gåjvun - ??

- Gjenstand for handlingen: gåbtjås ??

- Resultatet (produktet) av handlingen: tjála - text ???

- Vær- og føreforhold, eller stedet hvor handlingen skjer: jådådahka - godt føre ; tjuoladahka - sted hvor en har hugget ved - som heter ? og forkortes ? (Kristin)

Yet, in its present form I cannot quite make sense out of the above listing. It would help if you could indicate the word's citation form and the affix, and provide some more context for the Norwegian translations. Thanks

(Dorothee 17:21, 15 December 2008 (CET))


Please add the full reference for Spiik to the page Lule_Saami_reference_list


(Kristin): NOUNS

DEM are nouns, QUANT are also nouns, NUMB are nouns too,

They can all be a free noun.

Now I am lost. Perhaps you refer to the fact that words are often not only member of one categorial class but of several.

Here some examples:

  • Those apples look good.
  • I take two those and three of the others.
  • These two are still good.

(Dorothee 17:27, 15 December 2008 (CET))

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